The Baptism of Body & Soul

An Interview with Barbara & Adriano Azzara

Charles: Adriano, in the summer of 2009, you started to professionally practice WatsuŽ. For those visitors to this web site who are not familiar with this healing modality, let me simply say that WatsuŽ combines warm water with traditional Japanese Shiatsu massage. The benefits that have been well documented include stretching, deep relaxation, enhanced circulation, and increased body awareness. Adriano, have you noticed some other benefits of WatsuŽ, based on your experience as a Practitioner?

Adriano: I have discovered that the WatsuŽ pool is a place where the second nature of the person receiving the massage can emerge.

C: What do you mean when you say "second nature?"

A: I refer to our hidden nature, our Inner-Self, our True Self, the part of us that we do not generally show to others.

C: And why do we not show this part?

A: Because we do not want to show it, and/or we cannot at this time show it. We do not want to show it because we fear that revealing it will cause trouble in our relationships. Generally our True Self cannot emerge because of earlier traumas and unsolved issues. These must be healed before our True Self can emerge in its wholeness.

C: This hidden part is in fact part of our soul or our psyche. So why are people so convinced that they cannot reveal it?

A: It is due to the process of repression as discussed in classical psychology. People have a painful memory, that they have not yet come to terms with, that they don't know how to come to terms with, and they chose to forget it, to repress it. After a while this way of being becomes normal, becomes the way they conduct themselves in life. Then they, in normal circumstances, cannot any longer access this place. But it can come forward in a WatsuŽ session.

C: What is it about a WatsuŽ session that brings this place out?

A: I don't have scientific study to quote, but I believe that it is the primal nature of the warm water, combined with the holding, and our desire to communicate. If we feel safe at deeper level, we will bring it forward.

C: And why would people want this part to come forward -- after all they have invested so much time and effort to repress it?

A: That is an important question. Barbara can address this better than I can, in part because English is not my first language. But we do see this matter in a similar way.

B: One reason is that we must bring the True Self forward if we are going to be intimate with our self and therefore also with another. To have the courage to expose our True Self, that is an important plateau, it is an important accomplishment for all of us to reach. Among other misconceptions, humanity has absorbed the concept of "Original Sin," and this makes us afraid of revealing our inner nature. But If we are convinced that our essence is Divine, that Love is our essence, it is not necessary to conceal our True Self, to continue to wear our Mask.

A: To live in constant fear of losing the Mask, to fear being recognized as inherently evil, and to believe that we are surrounded by other evil natures, these perspectives induce stress. Eventually this can cause serious diseases such as cancer and heart attack.

C: Well, in a short time, we went from the WatsuŽ pool to the essence of being human. Let's focus on clarifying the intermediate steps of this transformational process. What goes into this journey?

A: I think it's best to let Barbara express her opinion regarding the fear of being honest, the mask, and our deeper real nature. Barbara, can you talk about what's possible for people if they go beyond their mask?

B: The human personality, according to the teaching of the Pathwork, is made up of the true and Divine self, the disowned and denied self, and the altered and "pretend" self. The latter is what we refer to as the mask self. This mask is the creation of fear and the pseudo solutions [personal strategies] of the ego to get its false needs met. The mask hides what we judge in ourselves as not acceptable. To live in our masks is to ensure a life of separation.

C: So Barbara, as a spiritual teacher, in most cases people come to you with a problem that they would like some help with. But when it comes to the WatsuŽ process, we are talking about people being gently and organically provoked to move to a deeper level of truth. Is the entry point into a spiritual process fundamentally different for these two types of people?

B: We have not compiled enough information to come to a definitive answer. I believe there are three distinct types of people. The first are those who come for a water massage -- they relax, they surrender their minds, and they have a "great" session. The second are those who come with their histories, and their fears, and it is a totally different experience. If they are willing, they can enter into a deepening level of consciousness with Adriano's assistance. The third are those who use the water, Adriano's gentle presence, and the breath to name an intent, and to surrender to another level of consciousness. It is with this third group that my work and Adriano's work bridge the psychological, mental and spiritual. This is there where the mind, body and spirit dance.

C: And for you again Barbara, what is it about the water and the WatsuŽ experience that accelerates the movement into a deep spiritual transformational process?

B: In my experience, it is the primordial experience of being held, and of feeling safe and of being in the silence of the breath. It is a timeless experience. But this process is available only if one is able to surrender. The physical environment that Adriano has created is very womb like, and that assists with the surrender process.

C: What is the recommended sequence of combining WatsuŽ massage with the Pathwork spiritual development process? Do people start with a few WatsuŽ sessions, and then move to Pathwork sessions as a way to deal with the things that have arisen in the course of the WatsuŽ sessions? Or should they go back and forth between the two?

B: This combination is new. We are, or we like to believe we are, creating something entirely new. It is reminiscent of the way Pathwork was combined with Core Energetics. On another level, it is also reminiscent of the combination of Pathwork and the BRETH work. Adriano's expression of WatsuŽ is what I have been looking for -- a healing combination of mind, spirit and body. This question is also difficult to answer because the range of experiences that people have is quite wide. It can truly be a Baptism. To create this intense experience, by intention we consciously immerse ourselves in the teachings of Spirit (the Pathwork), and surrender to the cosmic bliss as we are held by Adriano in the WatsuŽ experience. The WatsuŽ, when combined with my counseling work, allows the mental to become a chalice for dynamic transformation of the mind, body and spirit. This experience is most beneficial when people do individual intensives, which can last a day, or sometimes several days.

A: Barbara spoke about the third type of person (who is generally a Pathworker). The second type during a WatsuŽ session can discover his or her inner Self, and this is an important first step. If this discovery creates some disturbance or imbalance, Barbara is upstairs for assurance and processing. Then the person has a choice to conceal his or her inner self, or to reveal it. If these people choose to reveal themselves, then they will soon thereafter become the third type of person.

C: Can you speak to the benefits of working with two people (and here I'm talking about Adriano and Barbara) who know each other so well, who know each other's work, who know how each other interacts with others? Is there a synergy when people work with the both of you?

A: I do not know exactly… a right combination of Yin and Yang?

B: I believe that is the combination of the conceptual and physical. This mix can become a model of healing in the future. Our home can be considered a retreat center, for those who want a deeper experience of "relating" and intimacy, beyond transference. It is a gift that our love has created, and we are grateful to those who have entered our home and our hearts.

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Charles Cresson Wood, MBA, MSE, is a Pathwork Helper specializing in relationship and abundance work. He is the author of the Pathwork book entitled Opening to the Abundance, published by Pathwork Press in 2004 (available on www.amazon.com). He is also a writer and a risk management consultant. He can be contacted via www.abundantreality.com.

Moving Towards The Beloved

An Interview With Barbara Azzara

Wood: What do you mean when you use the words "the Beloved"?

Azzara: The Beloved is who you are. This is contrary to what most people think -- they think that the Beloved is outside of themselves. The path to the Beloved is to recognize who you really are, to hold and embrace the remembering that you are in fact the Beloved. Once you recognize this, that you are the Source, then you can move towards the Other. When you really get this, then you can readily see that there is no separation between you and others.

Wood: So loving another is inextricably tied-up with self-love?

Azzara: I cannot love you one bit more than I have come to love myself. And to help me move in this same direction, I'm learning a whole new definition of love. It involves not asking for anything in return, but at the same time feeling a deep affection for another. I remember John Pierrakos, who was then my core energetics therapist, saying that "love is a pot belly stove emanating and pulsating warmth, asking for nothing in return." Once you begin to have that experience, and you don't expect anyone else to fill your needs, then your heart can be filled with a sense of your essential nature, then you don't need to look outside yourself for somebody else to fill you up. This sense of inner blessedness and inner harmony is the energy of the Godhead, it is the Higher Self.

Wood: When you say that the first step towards another is to love yourself, what exactly does that mean?

Azzara: The presence of fear impairs love. Love and fear cannot be experienced in the same moment. My own life provides a vivid example of this. When I was going through a divorce with my first husband, I was in a dismal space, and I was asking myself "what is relationship?" In an effort to find the truth of the matter, I received a graduate degree in sexuality, and wrote my thesis on the Guide's lecture called The Fear Of Loving (#72). The Guide teaches that our Idealized Self Image (ISI) is created to avoid feeling our original pain. Our original pain is the pain of rejection and abandonment. One cannot love when one is in fear of once again experiencing this rejection, abandonment, and the fear of not being gently received.

What I have learned on my own journey is that most of us spend a great deal of energy trying to remain in control, trying to avoid feeling our feelings, feelings that we judge to be overwhelming and terrifying. I have come to realize that I have spent two of my marriages trying to defend myself against love, defending myself because of my unconscious fear of being hurt.

Wood: Can you tell us how this shows up in your relationship with your new husband?

Azzara: Part of me has already said "no" to everything. I am so afraid of change, I have such a rigid character structure, that my first reaction to any proposal for a change is "no." I am afraid that I will be controlled, I am afraid to share my vulnerability, and I am afraid to ask for help. I am afraid that I won't matter, I am afraid that I will be invaded, and I am afraid that I will be smothered. I see clearly how these fears create a state of not loving. I see how these fears create a defense structure that attempts to be rigid, hard, and indestructible. And of course when I use that, there is no opportunity for my sweetness and softness to come through. It is in my owning of these things that I can take a step towards the other, in this case towards my powerful new husband Adriano.

Wood: The Guide talks about our fears of seeing the unpleasant truth in a Beloved, and how this forces us to withdraw our love for this person. Can you give us some advice about seeing the Beloved in reality?

Azzara: We must be clear about who we love -- is it the Beloved or is it our fantasy about the Beloved? And if it is the latter, then we can't allow ourselves to see their faults. But if we really see our partner, we can appreciate that he or she is no different than we are. When we can love in our partner what we have previously rejected in ourselves, then the celebration begins!!

Wood: Can you speak to the dualistic thinking that gets in the way of approaching the Beloved? For example, perhaps we need to maintain the image that our Beloved is perfect.

Azzara: A teacher in one of my retreats told me to study all the statues in New York's Central Park. I really respected this teacher, so I did as he suggested. I noticed that the statues were mostly on pedestals, mostly bronze or marble, and mostly men. I reported this back to my teacher. The teacher said I hadn't done enough studying and that I should go back and repeat the process. This time I was angry about having to do it again, and I prayed to see what I had not previously seen. Then I noticed that every statue had pigeon shit on it. When you put somebody on a pedestal, you're going to want to cover them with pigeon shit. And that's what relationship is usually about -- unconsciously we want to take our partner off the pedestal, but we're not sure we can love them if we do in fact take them off the pedestal.

It is the child in us that wants to believe that our partner is perfect. If we unconsciously bring our child into an intimate relationship, there's going to be trouble. Conscious love has as its motive the desire that the recipient fully receive their own inherent perfection, regardless of the consequences to the lover. In other words, whatever happens, the conscious lover says "I want you to grow and prosper." This type of love is so rare because so many of us are focused on our desire to be loved, rather than being focused on our desire to give love.

Romantic love cannot be experienced by emotionally-wounded children, those who cannot make a choice, or those whose "love" is fueled by an attachment to historic beliefs and images. Conscious love can only happen in the NOW! I believe that conscious love is rare because most "lovers" seldom conceive of "perfection" and acceptance of self as the end product of love. I am beginning to see love as a work of art in progress. As we grow, our love for self, and then our love for the Other blossoms, and then the partnership becomes the crucible for reaching God. This type of conscious love is really scarce. How many people are willing to love without a guarantee of being loved? How many are willing to give without the promise of receiving? How many people are willing to choose love instead of fear? How many people are willing to remember, rather than drop into the darkness of forgetting? This degree of love doesn't happen by chance. It is a product of choosing love, over and over, moment by moment, breath by breath.

In order to do this, I must first find perfection in myself, letting go of my beliefs in my own imperfections so that I can then see the perfection in my Beloved. I need to ask what do I judge in you, that I have tried to stamp out in myself? Our partners are our mirrors. Can we live with what we see? I believe that those who are longing for this type of love from another first must find the Beloved within. They must embrace and accept their own magnificence. The conscious lover is dedicated to this process, not the end goal. In this form of relationship, the partnership is the vehicle, not the purpose, and that is how I see the Guide's teachings on the Spiritual Meaning of Relationship (#180).

Wood: What kind of self-love would you recommend so that we can best be prepared to approach the Beloved?

Azzara: I recently had a session with a spiritual teacher where I heard that I would meet my complement in this lifetime [the Guide defines our complement as our other half, the one with whom we merge before we move to the next level of consciousness]. I now appreciate that my husband Adriano is that. To embrace this opportunity I ask myself: "Am I willing to be loving?" I ask myself: "Am I willing to put myself in an apprenticeship where I learn about love, a place where one day I may achieve mastery?" So I'm talking about making a conscious choice for love, for service to God. Out of respect for the fact that we are created in the image of God, I give up my need to reject and criticize, I give up my need to make others wrong and bad. I am learning to embrace myself as the Beloved and then I can look at you and see you as the Beloved, someone who is also on a sacred journey. So the self-love is the remembering of this, remembering who I am so that I can see who you are. The journey to the Beloved begins with the embracing of yourself.

Wood: Can you say something about the fear of confrontation, and how this fear prevents us from risking, how this blocks us from approaching the Beloved?

Azzara: Because we haven't deeply approached ourselves, we cannot do this with another. The child in us believes that it's going to die if it risks this type of confrontation. Fear of confrontation comes from a fear that we are going to be wrong. Fear of confrontation is grounded in a belief and image that we won't be heard or understood. Because we don't feel safe, because we fear we are not enough, we are not willing to risk confrontation.

Wood: The lectures include references to "fusion" with another, defining it as a state of pleasure supreme, ecstasy, bliss, love, and sexuality. Can you tell us about the precursors and necessary conditions for fusion to occur?

Azzara: Love yourself. Own who you are regardless of what the world says. Gregory Alper put it well when he said that if you remove the letters "ni" from the word "organism," what do you have? The "ni" in this case is negative intentionality, which includes the idealized self image, the emotional reactions, the lower self, and the like. If you are willing to consciously remove your negative intentionality, you are going to have orgasm. The state of pleasure supreme is an outpicturing of the letting go of your negative intentionality. You must know your fear of loving, you must know your negative intentionality, and you must then must make the conscious choice to love.

Wood: How important is individuation in order for us to be able to deeply integrate with the consciousness of another?

Azzara: If you are not individuated, you cannot be yourself. To truly be in love with another, I can't be in love with the image that the other holds up. Looking at it from the other direction, you can't be loved because you pretend to be what the other person wants. If I have individuated, then what you think of me is none of my business. I will be OK with your "no." In the Guide's words, your "no" will not create a life/death experience for me. This is just the beginning, the long answer would be a book.

We must risk giving ourselves what we need. We must be willing to pick ourselves up again when we fall. If we are not understood, it is not a disaster. We don't need to take it personally if somebody disagrees with us. We need to be willing to dig deep within ourselves, we need to be able to risk being vulnerable, we need to risk revealing our feelings. All these things are in the service of individuation. And the more you are individuated, the better you will be able to love another. We often think that individuation is at odds with having a loving relationship, but that's not true.

Ideally both people in an intimate relationship are willing and committed to doing their work. Ideally both people love themselves enough to open their arms to each other and to God. Ideally both are willing to stand in a metaphorical mirror, knowing that not until they can truly love themselves, can they hope to have fusion with the Beloved.

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Barbara Azzara (aka Barbara Glabman-Cohen) is a therapist, a senior Pathwork helper, and a POC faculty member based in Penn Valley, California. Recently relocated from Miami, Florida, she is co-facilitator with Emmanuel and Pat Rodegast of "Teaching With Spirit." She is also a Core Energetics Therapist as well as a BRETH practitioner.
Charles Wood is a writer, a Pathwork helper, and POC faculty member based in Sausalito, California.